That’s the point of difference, then. Ponting, in my book, will always be one step behind Tendulkar and Lara.
Though the picture is clear enough based on just statistics, there is qualitative evidence as well.
Ponting has weaknesses in his batting, while it is generally accepted (by most who follow the game) that Lara and Tendulkar didn’t have any.
I have not yet heard of any bowler of importance quote Ponting as the ‘hardest batsmen to bowl to’. Whereas Tendulkar and Lara regularly won such platitudes. We’re talking all-time greats here, like Akram, Younis, Donald, Warne, Murali, Ambrose, Walsh, Bishop, Brett Lee…
I have not heard any PAST greats praise Ponting (I am discounting Australians here, just as I will discount Indians in the case of Tendulkar) as an ‘all-time great batsman’, while Lara and Tendulkar were regularly referred to as such.
I am talking Viv Richards, Barry Richards, Don Bradman and many more.

So I don’t know, Dilip. You’re entitled to your opinion, of course, but both quantitative and qualitative evidence seem to point to Tendulkar and Lara over Ponting.

But as I said, I have no right to question your opinion

Boy Megha, look how much mileage your blog got because of this (pretty pointless) argument

Cheers for your perspective on the RP/SRT bit. Minor quibbles but after this post ( I’ll call it quits as well.

My only grouse is that Sharath ( and you as well) reckon Ponting shouldn’t be mentioned in the same breath as Tendulkar because of their respective teams.

I kindly disagree on that simply because of my last post – batting is an individual thing within a team. If you are good, your averages will reflect it and vice versa.

I’m amazed that you use all the stats to rate SRT better than RP – but then please do explain their respective stats against South Africa – who we all agree were right behind Aus in the rankings ! SRT’s record doesn’t look too flash does it ?

On the whole SRT is squeaky clean – wasn’t he the same bloke who was caught ‘ tampering’ the ball and got a ban in South Africa in 2001 ? Was it intentional,. was it tampering who knows ? But he has that blot on his record doesn’t he ?

I’m not sure where you got the idea that I rate Ponting better than Tendulkar – I don’t. What I FIRMLY BELIEVE on this statement : Ponting alongwith Tendulkar and Lara are the prime batsmen of the last 15 years. Period.

“…but the best batsman ever will be the lovechild which is going to be born out of Praveen Kumar and Bhajji, and it’s not even close.”

OK stop now. *shudder*

Good work man. Thank you for holding the fort on SRT’s and my behalf single-handedly. Just one thing.

Dilip said
“Equally , it’s an undisputable fact that in all of India’s AWAY triumphs from early 2000’s it’s not SRT who had a hand, but a certain RD”

Sharath said
“Er, not true. Adelaide would not have happened without Agarkar. Kolkata would not have happened without Harbhajan. Look at any of our ‘great’ test victories, and you see a good bowling performance”

You NEVER undermine RD on my blog. NEVER EVER.

My apologies for not being apart of this fascinating discussion. Life got in the way. Plus I am not a very statistically inclined person. So I could never have dug out all those numbers that you and Sharath did. My thoughts on both players are as much to do with the numbers as to my perception about them in general. My additions on the discussion -

1. Tendulkar started playing at the age of 16. He has been playing for 20 years non-stop, never left out of the team for performance issues. Please tell me how many other such teenage prodigies do you know of who have lasted so long, performed consistently and acheived so much. Here is a link to help you along..youngest players on debut http://stats.cricinfo.com/ci/content/records/209994.html. I am not saying that Ponting loses out here because he did not get picked when he was 17. But Ponting did not have the kind of burden on him that Sachin did. It is not easy dealing with the kind of adulation, criticism and expectations day in and day out that Sachin did. Sachin carried his own aspirations and the weight of the team and all Indian cricket fans on himself. Performing thus for a long period of 20 years is no joke.

2. You cite Ponting’s avg as a captain and say he handled the pressure of captaincy better. I say he had better resources than Sachin had. Plus, he did not have to struggle with that obnoxious species called the Indian selectors. (Refer to these links and see what Sachin had to counter with other than his team
http://www.rediff.com/sports/mar/4d.htm
http://www.rediff.com/sports/1998/jan/05a.htm
http://www.rediff.com/sports/1998/apr/29b.htm

worth your while)

3. You referred to WC ’03 to give an example of SRT not being a match winner. But you conviniently forgot to see that Tendulkar is the highest run getter in WCs.
SRT – 36 matches, 1796 runs
RP – 39 matches, 1537 runs

You want to compare for just those WCs where both RP and SRT played? Even better!
SRT – 28 matches, 1513 runs
RP – 39 matches 1537 runs

The fact that India did not manage to win the cup is because it was India that needed to step up it’s game for the win, not just Sachin. The bowlers allowed Aus to get to 360. How many teams have chased down that kind of score in the history of the game?

4. Another little stat that I did dig out. In the 90s SRT scored 22 test centuries, 4 of which resulted in victories for India. In this decade, where I think we all will agree that India became a better team, 12 of his 20 centuries resulted in Indian victories. I think that is proof enough that team matters as much as your personal contribution when it comes to winning matches.

5. Ricky Ponting is Pricky Ranting. He is an obnoxious, arrogant, cheating, lying pig. Just for that Tendulkar is much greater than him.

Nobody here is denying that Ponting is a great batsman. What we disagree on is that he is greater than Tendulkar. I repeat what I said at Armball. Because he was part of an incredible team for almost all the years he has played, his match-winning abilities appear stronger than they should be. And Tendulkar’s seem less so because he has played with a relatively weaker one.

After reading your back and forth with Sharath it also seems to me that there is a clash in our thoughts as to what factors to consider while judging a batsman. Which is fair enough. So shall we call it quits on Dilip thinks Ponting is the best batsman of this era and Sharath and Megha think it is SRT?

For fear of flogging a dead horse, but my last and final attempt as well.

For starters me trying some humour hasn’t worked , so will leave out trying to explain the ‘ Aus won, and thus Ponting gets 50 runs credit, whether he has scored or not’ bit.

I look at batting as purely this : it’s you against the wicket and the bowlers. If you are good enough to last long enough and in the process score runs, the numbers would stack up themselves. If you aren’t , well the averages would reflect that as well. Also the mental aspect would play a part too.

Secondly you can’t score runs all by yourself, like how ‘ gully cricket’ can be played.i.e. with just one batsman. So someone needs to stick with you, it could be many, it could be just one.

Even with someone/many sticking around, you score your own runs. No one can do it for you.

Hope the above is as clear as I can make it.

Admittedly Ponting has played in a world class team for long parts of his career, unlike Tendulkar. BUT and here it comes – HE HAS TO SCORE THE RUNS ALL BY HIMSELF.

If you now refute all the numbers Ponting has stacked up by saying he played in a good team, I just don’t buy it. Sorry. For the very reason I’ve said in capital letters above.

You look at his away record and say – poor. Equally he averages 61 in Aus. Now it’s well known wickets in Aus do offer more to the bowlers, than the fat pancake tracks in India. So in essence the fact that he averages 61 is testamount to his talent.

His bug bear has been the record in India – and just based on that one blemish, you saying he can’t be rated as equal to Tendulkar ? I don’t buy that as well.

Tendulkar averages 36 against South Africa, while Ponting averages 56. Based on their performances against admittedly the second best team in the world for the best part of 2000′s would you then say Tendulkar is bad ?

Sure Ponting has come in many a time with the score reading 100 /1, but then if he wasn’t good enough consistently, he would get out soon as well. Over the course of his career he’s made sure that his own individual stats stack up well against the teams stats. No one gave him freebies or runs just because he played for Australia.

You commented that Tendulkar hasn’t gorged on the weak attacks because he entered the most injury prone phase of his career- for me that’s a cop out. If you don’t train well enough or hard enough – and you get injured tough luck !

Sorry pal, but I don’t buy your argument that Ponting will be rated lower than Tendulkar or Lara.

Lastly, you picked Warne over Murali – for me that’s very strange considering you use just numbers for arguments.

Warne played for Aus, he had Mcgrath/Gillespie/Lee – so his stats need to be dumbed down. Poor Murali – he’s done it all on his own !!

I’ve always rated Warne as the best bowler. He didn’t fatten his record against Zim/Bang, unlike Murali who has about 200 wickets against them. For me that alone is enough to not rate Murali high.

A birthday threat turned into a big time discussion

Great arguments Sharath and Dilip, but the best batsman ever will be the lovechild which is going to be born out of Praveen Kumar and Bhajji, and it’s not even close.

Errr……. happy birthday SillyMaidon?

As a general final comment, no one is arguing here that Ponting’s numbers are as good as Tendulkar’s. It is the ‘why’ behind the numbers that we’re debating.

Warne or Murali? Warne, but only by a whisker.

Pontings average under all captains in tests goes :

Made his debut when Mark Taylor was captain ( 1995-98) : 37
Then played under Steve Waugh ( 99 – 2004) :64
Had two tests when Gilchrist stepped in for Waugh : 80
Then as Captain himself : 56.

So save for his first three years , I’m sorry but how does Ponting fare worse than Tendulkar ?

Do tell me this – have the ICC boffins made a rule which I’m not aware of ?

So for argument sake , in one test if Ponting has made 0, and Aus ( having both Warne/Mcgrath) has won the test, do the ICC decide – Aus won, and Ponting didn’t meet his average of 50, so we’ll award him the runs he needs to keep up his average ?????????

Besides not facing Warne/Mcgrath – Ponting has faced all the bowlers Tendulkar has. Equally I could say Tendulkar didn’t have to face Chucker Singh and Kumble on rank turners in India. I wouldn’t though.

I’m nitpicking – that’s amusing pal ! You take Tendulkars avg in first innings as the be it and end it of all. No seeing what he has done after that. I’m not that narrow minded – I think as a batsman first or fourth innings – if you are rated as very good, you better perform.

Ah well, to each his own in the end I suppose.

Just curious though , who do you rate as better : Warne or Murali ?